looking for advice building large cubic inch sbc
10-19-2007, 03:30 PM
#31
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[quote="hink"]
My thoughts as well as we have seen to many 400 blocks scraped after a hard season of running due to cracking.
And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.
One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.
Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.
Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.
After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.
It all biols down to what you can really afford.
At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot
First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.
(QUOTE)
Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.
As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.
Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.
JMO,
Zip.
Now to compare apples to apples here do you build performance engines for a living and have a complete machine shop to do the work???
Now from what I have seen if a lifter bore is off .025 from intake to a exhaust not front to rear it does change the seat timing a lot depending on the direction and if its picking up onthe ramp earlier its going to leave earlier and if its in the other direction it will pick up later and leave later.
And we feel at our shop that if the lifter bores are off up to .025 it does change things alot.
Now if you take a roller lifter and its starting up on the ramp and move the lifter .025 it sure going to be more then .001 to .004 differance depending on how aggressive the ramp is.
And moving cylinders from intake to exhaust is not recomended as that changes the center line of the rod a piston compared to center line of the crank, Now the piston is at a different height in the cylinder both sides of the stroke.
And using splayed caps on a block is much better as with splayed caps its tying in the pan rails into the webbing making for a much stronger peice.
I have seen most guys that don't like splayed caps don't have the ability
to put them on like cutting the registers, line boring, line honing ETC.
I really hope your are kidding about lifter bores that off .025 only changes things about .001 to .004 and 2 bolt caps are stronger then a splayed caps and moving cylinders HMMM What type of machine shop do you guys run ( IF ANY)
You are right, most people donot have a clue about machining or what's involved, but i'm not that person. I donot build engines for a living. I've been a machinest for nearly 50 yrs. and for the last 10yrs. i have worked at (http://btdinc.org/index.html) as a programmer, operator,and teacher. We have 3 20X40 CNC 4 axis fadals, CNC lathes, 3 wire EDM's a hole popper, 3, EDM sinker machines, in all about 2 million dollars in equipment, all of which i programm and run.
But i can understand where you are comming from, about useing stock blks. because you have to stand behind your engines, where i donot. i guess if i were building engines for a living i too would insist on an after market block.
I do know that we are getting over 700 HP, from stock blocks with .842 lifters. We did work with Bullit cams for about 3 yrs. to develope a cam that would work for us in the 434's.
Again i was only stating what works for us, not trying to start an argument, i appolagise if i pissed you off,
Zip.
Originally Posted by zipper06
Originally Posted by hink
Originally Posted by Pwmax
My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.
One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.
Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.
Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.
After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.
It all biols down to what you can really afford.
At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot
First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.
(QUOTE)
Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.
As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.
Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.
JMO,
Zip.
Now from what I have seen if a lifter bore is off .025 from intake to a exhaust not front to rear it does change the seat timing a lot depending on the direction and if its picking up onthe ramp earlier its going to leave earlier and if its in the other direction it will pick up later and leave later.
And we feel at our shop that if the lifter bores are off up to .025 it does change things alot.
Now if you take a roller lifter and its starting up on the ramp and move the lifter .025 it sure going to be more then .001 to .004 differance depending on how aggressive the ramp is.
And moving cylinders from intake to exhaust is not recomended as that changes the center line of the rod a piston compared to center line of the crank, Now the piston is at a different height in the cylinder both sides of the stroke.
And using splayed caps on a block is much better as with splayed caps its tying in the pan rails into the webbing making for a much stronger peice.
I have seen most guys that don't like splayed caps don't have the ability
to put them on like cutting the registers, line boring, line honing ETC.
I really hope your are kidding about lifter bores that off .025 only changes things about .001 to .004 and 2 bolt caps are stronger then a splayed caps and moving cylinders HMMM What type of machine shop do you guys run ( IF ANY)
But i can understand where you are comming from, about useing stock blks. because you have to stand behind your engines, where i donot. i guess if i were building engines for a living i too would insist on an after market block.
I do know that we are getting over 700 HP, from stock blocks with .842 lifters. We did work with Bullit cams for about 3 yrs. to develope a cam that would work for us in the 434's.
Again i was only stating what works for us, not trying to start an argument, i appolagise if i pissed you off,
Zip.
10-20-2007, 08:58 PM
#32
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Zipper
I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.
Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.
I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.
Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.
10-21-2007, 08:25 AM
#33
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Originally Posted by hink
Zipper
I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.
Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.
I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.
Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.
Zip.
10-21-2007, 11:36 AM
#34
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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Originally Posted by zipper06
Originally Posted by hink
Zipper
I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.
Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.
I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.
Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.
Zip.
We use the Jesel .904's as they use a bigger wheel on those lfiters.
10-21-2007, 02:28 PM
#35
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I donnot have the equipment to B/P the cam tunnels, the only thing i could do is open up the lifter bores, and bore the blocks on our 4 axis Fadals. I usually use BB&T in Memphis to mag., line bore and hone the blocks,or Blalocks in Darma Ms, where he has a flow bench and a dyno.
I also would like to use the .904's for the larger rollers, but have not done so as of yet.
The shop i work in is primarily a Plastics injection mold building shop, plus some production machining. But i have full use of any equipment that i may want to use. We are not setup to do automative engine machining and therefore everything that i do requires a new setup i have no fixtures. We are certified ISO 9001-2000 high end machine shop Not automotive, but for aircraft and the medical industry. If you get a hip joint replacement we may have made the joint or atleast the tools required to install it. If you can draw it we can make it, if you have it and it's not drawn we can CMM it and reverse engineer it.
Our website is www.btdinc.org/ where i have worked for 10 yrs, and have been programming CNC equipment since 1975, before moving to the deep south i had a shop out west with CNC equipment doing mostly aircraft work. I've never worked in an automotive maching shop.
Zip.
I also would like to use the .904's for the larger rollers, but have not done so as of yet.
The shop i work in is primarily a Plastics injection mold building shop, plus some production machining. But i have full use of any equipment that i may want to use. We are not setup to do automative engine machining and therefore everything that i do requires a new setup i have no fixtures. We are certified ISO 9001-2000 high end machine shop Not automotive, but for aircraft and the medical industry. If you get a hip joint replacement we may have made the joint or atleast the tools required to install it. If you can draw it we can make it, if you have it and it's not drawn we can CMM it and reverse engineer it.
Our website is www.btdinc.org/ where i have worked for 10 yrs, and have been programming CNC equipment since 1975, before moving to the deep south i had a shop out west with CNC equipment doing mostly aircraft work. I've never worked in an automotive maching shop.
Zip.
10-21-2007, 08:17 PM
#36
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Originally Posted by hink
Originally Posted by zipper06
Originally Posted by hink
Zipper
I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.
Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.
I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.
Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.
Zip.
We use the Jesel .904's as they use a bigger wheel on those lfiters.
I donot have the speciality equipment that you have to build engines. What i have is the ability to build engines that for the most part last a whole season and perform better than most, Example 1 dragster runs 5.16 with my 377" motor, 1 dragster runs 4.94 with a 434" motor, the very ugly 1963 dodge runs 5.80's with a 434" motor. all of the motors are on 23 degree track 1 heads, no full CNC porting, no nitrous, but alcohol injected. theses are big blk times for a lot of people. 2 of these are stock 2 bolt main blocks, 1 has over 200 runs on it. I am not a professional builder and do not make any money on the engines i build, i only build for friends and myself. I have a video of all these runs and as soon as i can learn to change them from 8MM to cd-r i wil post them for the none believers.
I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain by the statements that i have made.
I know i can build 900 plus HP with 18 degree heads but i haven't been there yet. I'm building a 434" motor with Brodix 10's that i think will have about 850HP, but the video is worth a thousand words, and we will see what happens with the new motor.
Bottom line let's be friends and help one another rather than bash one another, i know you know what you are doing and i only ask respect for what i know and what i am doing.
Your friend
Zip.
10-21-2007, 08:32 PM
#37
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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Originally Posted by zipper06
I donnot have the equipment to B/P the cam tunnels, the only thing i could do is open up the lifter bores, and bore the blocks on our 4 axis Fadals. I usually use BB&T in Memphis to mag., line bore and hone the blocks,or Blalocks in Darma Ms, where he has a flow bench and a dyno.
I also would like to use the .904's for the larger rollers, but have not done so as of yet.
The shop i work in is primarily a Plastics injection mold building shop, plus some production machining. But i have full use of any equipment that i may want to use. We are not setup to do automative engine machining and therefore everything that i do requires a new setup i have no fixtures. We are certified ISO 9001-2000 high end machine shop Not automotive, but for aircraft and the medical industry. If you get a hip joint replacement we may have made the joint or atleast the tools required to install it. If you can draw it we can make it, if you have it and it's not drawn we can CMM it and reverse engineer it.
Our website is www.btdinc.org/ where i have worked for 10 yrs, and have been programming CNC equipment since 1975, before moving to the deep south i had a shop out west with CNC equipment doing mostly aircraft work. I've never worked in an automotive maching shop.
Zip.
I also would like to use the .904's for the larger rollers, but have not done so as of yet.
The shop i work in is primarily a Plastics injection mold building shop, plus some production machining. But i have full use of any equipment that i may want to use. We are not setup to do automative engine machining and therefore everything that i do requires a new setup i have no fixtures. We are certified ISO 9001-2000 high end machine shop Not automotive, but for aircraft and the medical industry. If you get a hip joint replacement we may have made the joint or atleast the tools required to install it. If you can draw it we can make it, if you have it and it's not drawn we can CMM it and reverse engineer it.
Our website is www.btdinc.org/ where i have worked for 10 yrs, and have been programming CNC equipment since 1975, before moving to the deep south i had a shop out west with CNC equipment doing mostly aircraft work. I've never worked in an automotive maching shop.
Zip.
If you go with the bigger wheel roller lifter let your cam grinder know what size wheel you are using as the bigger wheel pick up on the opening ramp earlier and leaves later changing you seat timing events and makes for more valve acceleration.
Carl
10-22-2007, 06:24 AM
#38
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Advice
The very best advice I can give you is to WAIT don't build your engine until you can put in the right parts. I have done this in the past and it just costs us more money in the long run because if it brakes its a waste if you later decide to build one out of "good parts" your old engine is still of no use and you will have to buy the stuff twice. But this is just my 2 cents, because my biggest problem has always been when I wanted something I wanted it right then!! good luck
10-26-2007, 04:47 PM
#40
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good luck with whatever you decide gearhead,just so you know,I have a sollid roller 434,GM 4bolt block,deck plugs & cement.Run it on street like crazy,cleans up around town,never had a problem.Still I have to say,these are some of the smartest guys I have ever come across,& if I did it again,aftermarket block for sure.I did ALLOT of grinding & clearencing on pan rails.I also ran a .900 base circle cam,but it was only because I allready ordered it.when i received the kit from Eagle it all fit so well I could have got away with stock size.Still that is allot of gold in there,so,first teardown Dart block for sure.In the meantime,I still pound it with confidence.Would I spray it??Not a chance with GM block. already in 600-650hp range,as high as I would safely go.
